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 A skeptical look at things (Part 1)

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PostSubject: A skeptical look at things (Part 1)   Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:41 am

Hi Ahmed and Glen,

sorry I took so long. Up to my eyeballs with work as well. These are only a few points of many I would like to discuss with you, so it's just a start.
You comment, you are using “equipment that is created for contacting with spirits.” on YouTube. Apart from the obvious question as to how you can verify that the equipment works properly, I have a few queries and (critical) comments. Please do feel free to correct me, if I am wrong and please view my criticism as trying to be constructive, not insulting.

Your videos are made with the intention, that the viewer decides, based on the information at hand. You also claim, that you are trying to be as honest and objective as possible. Now in the video “MUST WATCH!!!! is this a ghost? most shocking footage caught by ghost hunters” (a condensed version of Episode IV, St. Peters Church Cemetery, Bournemouth – esp. Part 7), you use, amongst other things, a wooden planchette.

Now, this is what I see. You are both on uneven ground, with a sheet (of paper?) spread out in-between you both. You are both kneeling in an unstable position and touching the planchette as you ask a ghost to move it (with the help of your hands in the full video).

What are you hoping to test (in such a short space of time)?

1. Planchette moves =
a. ghostly activity
b. operator activity (e.g. Carpenter effect, hoax)
c. enviromental influences (e.g. wind)
d. invisible goblin, gremlin, demon or God activity (Why presume a ghost in the first place?)
2. Planchette doesn't move =
a. ghost is not available for comment
b. planchette is not functioning properly
c. planchette is useless for detecting ghosts

You claim the EMF Meter, which you add to the experiment, should pick up something, if the ghost approaches. (Note it doesn't - nor does the added dictaphone, just for the record)

So what happens to the experiment afterwards? The expectations are lowered considerably. Instead of concentrating on the planchette, afterwards all other “effects” or “unexplainable phenomena” are used as suggestions of a possible ghostly presence. The way your experiment is set up and the way you use and present data is highly questionable and sadly not very scientific, even if you do mean well. I'll try to illustrate why I think this way...


1. The Planchette cannot move "on its own" (by invisible ghostlyforce). For whatever reasons, it is required that a person has contact with the planchette. Why? How the operator can compensate the Carpenter effect is unclear. Nor have there been precautions taken to eliminate environmental influences (e.g. wind) Why this experiment had to be conducted on uneven ground is unclear as well. (Later on you make such a fuss over the slight movement of the dictaphone string, which I find rather peculiar considering the set-up and location of said experiment. A portable table, set up on firm ground might be useful in future. Outside influences like wind could be avoided by using a light-weight, plastic tank in which to place a piece of paper and the planchette. This rules out any bodily subconscious influences by operators as well.
2. It has never been proven that the planchette actually works. Rather it has been proven time and time again to be useless or prone to error. If, as you claim, you want to use better methods and/or equipment, why use something which scientists won't accept? (This goes for all “ghost-tracking-equipment.” by the way.)
3. In other words you have very little control over the experiment, its set-up, its results, etc. The proper conclusion and action would be to discard the planchette-experiment in future and move on from there.

Apart from the planchette...

Why do you conduct your research in the dark hours? I'd love to see you do half and half for example. How about showing the viewer the site by day and night, conducting the same experiments and boldly doing what all these other self proclaimed "ghost hunters" don't do. After all you are not satisfied with their results and methods either. I think I know why you don't. Because it's naff and boring, costs loads of money and time and wouldn't entertain because it ain't spooky enough. It's more fun running around an old cemetery in the dark, listening to all possible noises, seeing shadows, getting the Blair Witch Project effect. That's what I call sensationalism and what most viewers sadly expect. Yet you yourselves claim:

“We go out to investigate, but at the moment we're in no position as of yet to end that debate, we're still trying to prove by what we find.”

I find that very hard to believe at the moment after viewing some of your videos and listening to your comments. I honestly would like to give you both the benefit of doubt, insofar as that you are not having people on, are truly trying to do some serious investigation and spending your spare time and money on this project for the benefit of all. It is exactly people like me and my criticisms which your videos will have to face up to though. The answer to this criticism cannot be: Make up your own mind – we will continue doing our investigation this way, until we are satisfied with our results.

When I speak of valid scientific methods, I am referring to basic experimentation, a questioning mind and a good understanding of scientific principles. For example: Ghosts drained the batteries again? What a bummer. How about testing this hypothesis by buying fresh identical batteries, placing one batch in a supposed haunted building and one in a non-haunted one and THEN measuring the draining effects on both batches. And not only once, but time and time again, till we have some usable data. This is the sort of experiment I am on about, it's as simple as that, with no costly high-technology equipment needed at all. Alas, who would want to watch you set up a batch of batteries, if they can hear funny noises in the dark...I can see your predicament.

Thanks for your input, time and effort guys. Take care and see you soon.
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PostSubject: Re: A skeptical look at things (Part 1)   Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:39 pm

Hello Thank You for contacting us.

We are two genuine investigators out there to prove something that scientists don't understand, so it shows how hard the task is for us to please everyone. Scientists have certain laws, laws of motion, laws of gravity etc, now what happens if we manage one day to see something floating in the air? Are we going to say to ourselves that our eyes and our equipement decieved us? Or is that einsteins laws of gravity was wrong? or is it possibly that theres more out there that we just don't understand such as ghosts? Now i know scientists have their own debates such as the higgs particles, dark matter and so on with things they can't see, but some believe in, and some don't of course. they got the same problem we have and that's proving it's existence, the difference is they got billions to spend on equipement whilst we don't.

Now to prove the difficulty of our task ahead, we asked for a logical scientific experiment from you that we could participate in, but putting two sets of batteries in two different locations unfortunatly is not going to please any skeptic for there is no proof of tampering, and it's no proof of a ghost. Now we never do tamper with our evidence, but for a skeptic, there is no proof. Like i said the reality we're going to be using unorthadox methods for our task ahead because there is no other way known to man.

We're in a position where we have to think outside the box of the scientific way of thinking, it's why we're trying all the supposed unorthadox equipment that we use to hopefully make contact with the spirit world. We don't say we believe in the equipment we use. For example our last episode we used the Ouija board, but we never had any feeling of a spirit moving our glass, nor have we had a spirit move our hands on the planchette we use, but it'll be ignorant of us to say they never work because thousands have said they have had strange experiences. We also have never had our EMF meter go of during investigation that can't be explained, but we'll still be using the equipment.

Thank You.

we're just trying to do our best in a very complex situation.
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PostSubject: Re: A skeptical look at things (Part 1)   Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:08 pm

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:
We are two genuine investigators

What do you actually mean by "genuine iinvestigators"?

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

out there to prove something that scientists don't understand

What exactly do these unnamed "scientists" not understand? That there are some unknown invisible forces at work in our midst? That ghosts do exist? That "There are more things in heaven and earth, ...Than are dreamt of in [their] philosophy."?

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

Scientists have certain laws.... laws of motion, laws of gravity etc,

They also have principles and methods, which lead them to formulate such laws. Science is not a religion, nor is it blind, even if it theorizes about and examines things invisible to the human eye.

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

now what happens if we manage one day to see something floating in the air? Are we going to say to ourselves that our eyes and our equipement decieved us? Or is that einsteins laws of gravity was wrong? or is it possibly that theres more out there that we just don't understand such as ghosts?

Well the obvious choice would be to seek out and exclude rational explanations first, before assuming some "supernatural" being or force is at work, I think. And the only known effective way to do that is to use science.

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

Now i know scientists have their own debates such as the higgs particles, dark matter and so on with things they can't see, but some believe in, and some don't of course. they got the same problem we have and that's proving it's existence, the difference is they got billions to spend on equipement whilst we don't.

No, the difference starts with the approach, not the money. Scientists don't formulate their theories out of thin air and even if they disagree on the conclusions this does not mean they disagree on the method of science.

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

Now to prove the difficulty of our task ahead, we asked for a logical scientific experiment from you that we could participate in, but putting two sets of batteries in two different locations unfortunatly is not going to please any skeptic for there is no proof of tampering, and it's no proof of a ghost.

I think you are missing the point here, nor did I claim that this experiment would prove ghosts exist. It was an example of a simple, effective, logical experiment. As ghosts have yet to be defined, I think you will have a hard time trying to prove their existence anyway. But if you claim or imply batteries are drained by ghosts, this simple experiment should prove that something peculiar is happening to batteries in haunted places as opposed to non-haunted ones. And why should you tamper with yourselves as you are the investigators out for truth? If you really want to be objective as possible about all this, why disregard the obvious and easy possibilities? Imagine you doing mundane, hard research on batteries, showing that batteries drain faster in supposed haunted places than non-haunted ones.You would truly have something to go on there.

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

Now we never do tamper with our evidence,

I don't imply that you do. What I do imply is that a lot of your "evidence" isn't worth much though. For example there is hardly any point in looking at the data afterwards and making remarks on unexplainable phenomena. If you hear something in the dark, what use is it, if you don't try and locate the source straight away? You call into the dark "Can you make a noise please or throw a small stone?" Chances are you will actually disturb some nocturnal creatures at night, which will make noises, like knocking down objects if they scamper away, or any other number of possibilities. What good is that? The chances of deluding yourselves are way to high.

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

but for a skeptic, there is no proof.

You yourselves entertain the idea of being skeptics? "We are Skeptics just like yourself and find this all very hard to take in and try to rule out...", you state on YouTube. Oh, there is plenty of proof for ghosts imaginable alright. I certainly can think of a number of things. To date no sound evidence has been presented though, in my opinion.

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

Like i said the reality we're going to be using unorthadox methods for our task ahead because there is no other way known to man.

Why? Unorthodox methods? You use the same methods, ideas, etc. like most other amateur ghost hunters. Since when has this unorthodox "way" been known to actually work out?

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

We're in a position where we have to think outside the box of the scientific way of thinking,

Why do you have to do that? Ghosts don't resonate or show up with scientific methods, is that it? Why don't they? You read like a creationist, dissing science as it isn't in accord with your beliefs. In other words it's pseudoscience you are practicing then?!

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

it's why we're trying all the supposed unorthadox equipment that we use to hopefully make contact with the spirit world.

This so called unorthodox equipment has a track record of 0 ever since it was invented. So how do you hope to accomplish contact with the spirit world by using it?

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

We don't say we believe in the equipment we use.

I don't claim you do. I'm asking you why you use this stuff in the first place. Tradition, it seems.

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

For example our last episode we used the Ouija board, but we never had any feeling of a spirit moving our glass, nor have we had a spirit move our hands on the planchette we use, but it'll be ignorant of us to say they never work because thousands have said they have had strange experiences.

And thousands of people obviously cannot be mistaken, so they must be believable? That would be a logical fallacy (argumentum ad populum) Hmmm Seriously, why are you not adressing my criticisms like the Carpenter effect or questions like "Why do you need to touch the planchette?" Have you actually taken into account that all these people just might have made errors in thinking, have a false memory, some even hoaxing? People believe in all kinds of stuff without good reasons. Why trust their anecdotical evidence?

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

We also have never had our EMF meter go of during investigation that can't be explained, but we'll still be using the equipment.

Which doesn't answer my questions either.

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

we're just trying to do our best in a very complex situation.

That I do believe, but I get the impression you are very evasive about all this and immuning yourself against criticism. It's like I hit a nerve discussing someone's cherished beliefs critically. If the situation is "complex", why not break it down bit by bit, instead of going for the fuzzy "big picture"?
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PostSubject: Re: A skeptical look at things (Part 1)   Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:32 pm

Hello, Thank You for your well thought out post.

We respect yours and everybody else’s opinion a lot, it's the reason why we created a skeptics page, so we can all discuss this together. We're not sure why you believe you've hit a nerve, in fact you've actually done the opposite as this is a learning process for us, and we're willing to learn, that's why we asked for your ideas. Criticism is something we expected, and well thought out discussions is something we encourage.

Now regarding the batteries, the problem is, it's only been that one episode out of 18+ where our batteries got drained, actually it's only been that one episode where we've had such things happen to the planchette. Now we're not sure what happened that night, we know the events that night was strange such as batteries draining, and even the quick reaction to the blur going has only been that once. We've been to 18+ other haunted places and never had that happen again, maybe it wouldn't happen again at that cemetery even if we did it 10 other times.

Now regarding the planchette, we never noticed what happened on the night. We believed at the time that it was just windy, and maybe it was just wind, but if we saw the shadow that night, then obviously we would of done our best to find out what made that shadow. Now all we got is our footage, and we believed the whole investigation was strange compared to your average investigation.

We do want to let you know that we don't " diss" science, all we're saying is at this moment of time there’s no scientific method that we know of that can instantly let us know ghosts exist otherwise we'll be trying those methods, but that's not a put down on science just because someone hasn't invented that method that can suddenly end the debate of do ghost exist? Maybe one day, someone will invent that method.

We're trying to capture evidence, it's why we're trying equipment that is supposed to detect some presence. Even if the equipment sounds ridiculous we'll still try that equipment because our thoughts is " why not try it, there’s no harm in trying".

Regards to us asking questions, I’m not sure what's wrong with asking a possible spirit to throw a stone or touch us when we're trying to make that possible spirit make itself known to us. If we can't see it, maybe we can feel it's presence, or if we can't feel or see it's presence, maybe we can hear it's presence. There’s so many possible ways something can make itself known that we're just trying all possible ways, but we understand that to some this would seem ridiculous, but that doesn't affect the way we investigate. The way we think is how rude would it be for us to ignore noises when it's possible the spirit is trying it's hardest to make contact with us in the only way it possibly can.

We went into investigations talking to the possible spirits like we was believers than skeptics because once again how rude would it be for us to say " that's not you making that noise" "You can't talk to us because we don't believe you".. We're not rude people, so that's not our nature, so when we're trying to get a reaction, we're going to talk to them the way we would like to be talked to. The problem is the more we investigated, the more our feelings changed, we're certainly not as skeptical as we was before, but our aim still stands and that's our mission is to see or feel something that can't be explained, and then show our findings for the world to see.

If you have any methods you feel that can give us any chance of making contact with possible spirits then please give us your ideas, because to be honest that's what we really care about, and what we're aiming to do.

Thank You.
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PostSubject: Re: A skeptical look at things (Part 1)   Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:51 am

Hello there,

I hope you don't mnind me joining in your conversation?

I just wanted to ask you why you feel the need to have to touch the planchette when doing oiuja? I have asked this question of many ghost groups and the answer seems to be that the 'spirit' need a person to work through. This, however, doesn't follow when you consider things like poltergeist activity. Why would a 'spirit' need someone to work through on one occasion and not another?

Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: A skeptical look at things (Part 1)   Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:46 pm

KeautyKat wrote:
Hello there,

I hope you don't mnind me joining in your conversation?

I just wanted to ask you why you feel the need to have to touch the planchette when doing oiuja? I have asked this question of many ghost groups and the answer seems to be that the 'spirit' need a person to work through. This, however, doesn't follow when you consider things like poltergeist activity. Why would a 'spirit' need someone to work through on one occasion and not another?

Thanks.

Very good question. Our body is full of energy, energy such as our neurons which carry messages in the form of electrical signals, which we call nerve impulses. We basically put our hands on the planchette in the hope the possible spirit can use our energy that our body naturally has so much of so it can use it to it's advantage to move the planchette. So far we have never had the planchette move, and we understand entities sometimes can move objects on their own, but i think it's fair for us to try and help any entity the best we can, and that's to give it the chance to use our energy to show it's presence in any way it can.
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PostSubject: Re: A skeptical look at things (Part 1)   Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:35 am

Hello there and thank you for your reply. I hope you don't mind but I have a few more questions for you?

The human body, after eating, will turn that food into energy to do physical work yes. To say our bodies are full of energy is correct in one sense and incorrect in another. What form do you perceive this energy, that is allegedly used by an 'entity', to be in? Energy forms are quite specific, so to use the term energy loosley like this takes away any possible credit that your speculation might have.

However, going along your line of thinking for a moment, if an 'entity' were able to somehow use our nervous system to communicate, would you not be concerned about using the nervous system in this way? As you are already aware that the nervous system can carry messages though our bodies, then I'm sure you are also aware that our nervous system can tell our bodies to react or move in certain ways according to sight, sound, touch etc? Our fingers have millions of receptors that use information from the natural environment and then send that information to the brain to process and react accordingly. Therefore if you were to get a response from a planchette whilst touching it, how would you be able to disguish from an 'entity' using your 'energy' to the naturally occuring environment being reacted to in your body? Wouldn't any results you did achieve have to be disregarded as you wouldn't be able to prove 'entity' involvement, assuming that is what you're trying to prove?

Also, may I ask, if you have tried the ouija experiment touching the planchette without movement, would you then consider the same experiment without touching the planchette?

Lastly, can I ask what you mean by 'entity'?

Many thanks for including us sceptics, not many paranormal forums do these days and it's refreshing to find a team willing to look at all possibilities, not just paranormal ones! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: A skeptical look at things (Part 1)   Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:53 am

KeautyKat wrote:
Hello there and thank you for your reply. I hope you don't mind but I have a few more questions for you?

The human body, after eating, will turn that food into energy to do physical work yes. To say our bodies are full of energy is correct in one sense and incorrect in another. What form do you perceive this energy, that is allegedly used by an 'entity', to be in? Energy forms are quite specific, so to use the term energy loosley like this takes away any possible credit that your speculation might have.

However, going along your line of thinking for a moment, if an 'entity' were able to somehow use our nervous system to communicate, would you not be concerned about using the nervous system in this way? As you are already aware that the nervous system can carry messages though our bodies, then I'm sure you are also aware that our nervous system can tell our bodies to react or move in certain ways according to sight, sound, touch etc? Our fingers have millions of receptors that use information from the natural environment and then send that information to the brain to process and react accordingly. Therefore if you were to get a response from a planchette whilst touching it, how would you be able to disguish from an 'entity' using your 'energy' to the naturally occuring environment being reacted to in your body? Wouldn't any results you did achieve have to be disregarded as you wouldn't be able to prove 'entity' involvement, assuming that is what you're trying to prove?

Also, may I ask, if you have tried the ouija experiment touching the planchette without movement, would you then consider the same experiment without touching the planchette?

Lastly, can I ask what you mean by 'entity'?

Many thanks for including us sceptics, not many paranormal forums do these days and it's refreshing to find a team willing to look at all possibilities, not just paranormal ones! Smile

We've done many investigations in all kind of conditions with the planchette, and so far we have had no activity, so i think alone that shows our nervous system personally for me and Glen isn't suspect to react in such a way where suddenly our planchette goes on a mind of it's own and starts writing messages. Like i said, we have never experienced such activity, and we've used the planchette in very cold weather, very warm weather, in dark scary places aswell and still our nervous system didn't react in such a manner that we didn't have the ability to control our hands. If we was getting activity every week, then i would understand your point of viiew, but that's not the case.


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PostSubject: Re: A skeptical look at things (Part 1)   Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:45 am

Hello there, it's not just my point of view, it's science and how our bodies work, it may not happen all the time but it 'can' happen.

What sort of energy were you referring to that you think an entity may be able to use and what do you mean by entity?

Many thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: A skeptical look at things (Part 1)   Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:52 am

KeautyKat wrote:
Hello there, it's not just my point of view, it's science and how our bodies work, it may not happen all the time but it 'can' happen.

What sort of energy were you referring to that you think an entity may be able to use and what do you mean by entity?

Many thanks.

Hello. We descriibed the energy that a spirit might be able to use, and that's our nerve impulses, and yes you're right, we can't prove if it's a spirit moving our hands, but then how can we anyway whilst using this piece of equipment? The planchette is a personal experiment for me and Glen.. Now we have done hundreds of investigations, and like i said we have tested the planchette in every sort of condition, and never had a response. Now for me and Glen personally, then it'll be very wierd if the planchette starts going off writing messages because it just doesn't happen to us. If we was getting responses all the time, then yes we'll be wondering if the planchette was moving because of us and our nerve impulses, but because we have done many investigations in all kinds of conditions, then i think it's fair to say that we have control without us moving a planchette all over the place creating our own messages LOL.

I said entity because we might not just be dealing with ghosts, but also other entities such as demons.

Also if our planchette can move on it's own without us touching it, then that's poltergiest activity, and if it can move the planchette, then i'm sure we wouldn't even need to use the planchette because it'll be able to move other stuff aswell.

Thank You.
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PostSubject: Re: A skeptical look at things (Part 1)   Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:20 am

dorsetghostinvestigators wrote:

Hello. We descriibed the energy that a spirit might be able to use, and that's our nerve impulses, and yes you're right, we can't prove if it's a spirit moving our hands, but then how can we anyway whilst using this piece of equipment? The planchette is a personal experiment for me and Glen..

I agree, you can't.

Quote :
Now we have done hundreds of investigations, and like i said we have tested the planchette in every sort of condition, and never had a response. Now for me and Glen personally, then it'll be very wierd if the planchette starts going off writing messages because it just doesn't happen to us. If we was getting responses all the time, then yes we'll be wondering if the planchette was moving because of us and our nerve impulses, but because we have done many investigations in all kinds of conditions, then i think it's fair to say that we have control without us moving a planchette all over the place creating our own messages LOL.

You can say that if you want to, you can say anything you like, I could 'say' the moon was made of cheese, but that doesn't make it so. But I understand you do it for personal pleasure and not as any kind of evidence, so fair enough Smile

Quote :
I said entity because we might not just be dealing with ghosts, but also other entities such as demons. Also if our planchette can move on it's own without us touching it, then that's poltergiest activity, and if it can move the planchette, then i'm sure we wouldn't even need to use the planchette because it'll be able to move other stuff aswell.

If you ever do have your planchette start to move, try doing it blindfold and then see how much sense it makes. I have asked, over the last 12 years, many groups to do this and they either refuse (I wonder why?!) or they do it and their messages that once made sense become gobbledegook! Surely a spirit/ghost etc wouldn't be fooled by a blindfold? Unless of course they need the user's eyes as well as their 'energy'? If you have time pop on to Youtube and type in penn & teller ouija board part 2, it's quite interesting and quite funny! This might not have happened to you guys yet, but that doesn't mean it won't.

"If there really is an afterlife, I'll bet the best way to contact it is through a plastic, mass-produced board game from Milton Bradley!"--Mad Magazine Wink
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PostSubject: @-@ too much too much   Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:09 am

way to much reading for my little brain to handle.
I don't get why the science card always get played into these things. I mean you can't say science hasn't proven its real so its not, science can only go as far as the current technology lets it. Until they made advances in technology they didn't know you could split an atom.
At the end of the day I hope they can't ever prove it because our human nature would destroy it
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